google translation of the interview at the end
U Srbiji me svi poznaju, a niko me nije čitao
U vašoj zemlji nisam mnogo prevođen, ne znaju šta sam zapravo radio u životu, pa se pitam zašto su ovde tako ljubazni prema meni
Autor: Ana Otaševićnedelja, 11.06.2017. u 22:00
Peter Handke je jedan od najznačajnijih savremenih pisaca na nemačkom jeziku. Njegovo delo je, međutim, kod nas malo poznato ili je ostalo u senci vanknjiževnih čitanja. Iz njegovog bogatog proznog, dramskog i esejističkog opusa preveden je tek mali deo – roman „Don Huan”, drama „Podzemni bluz”, odabrane pesme „Unutrašnji svet spoljašnjeg sveta unutrašnjeg sveta”, „Juče, na putu”, „Moravska noć”…
Zato ovaj put razgovaramo o literaturi, na marginama skupa pisaca „Kontrapunkt”. Handke u rukama drži malu beležnicu u kojoj zapisuje misli u dugim šetnjama u kojima nalazi inspiraciju.
– Život pisca nije usamljenički, to je kliše. Pisac je u vezi sa čitavim svetom dok piše. On je tada u najboljem društvu, u mašti neki ljudi zaista postaju ono što jesu – kaže pisac čije unutrašnje traganje određuje ritam spoljnog sveta.
Ponovo ste u Beogradu. Da li je od vaše poslednje posete grad nešto dobio ili je možda nešto izgubio?
Ovo je pravi grad, život koji se ovde odvija ne možemo da živimo u Parizu. Beograd je čudesno neujednačen. Bio sam ovde desetak puta i tek počinjem da ga otkrivam, počinjem da osećam njegovu geografiju, topografiju, geologiju. Ovde možemo da lutamo a da se ne izgubimo. Spustio sam se niz Dorćol do Dunava. Usred jutra se čula tehno-muzika, video sam ljude koji igraju u praznom prostoru. Ne znam da li je to lepo, ali je posebno.
Učestvujete u susretu pisaca…
To je usput. Nisam imao veliku želju da diskutujem, ali sam s interesovanjem slušao druge pisce, Rusa Prilepina, Kineza Ju Huu i vašeg pisca Milovana Danojlića. Prija, iako ne vodi ničemu, nećemo promeniti svet, ali zašto da ne.
Veliki ste putnik, napisali ste da je najzdraviji apetit onaj za mestima. Osećaj da ste prisutni u svetu provlači kroz čitavo vaše delo. Šta vas vezuje za neka mesta?
Mnoga mesta na svetu su na putu da iščeznu. Sve je toliko izjednačeno da se brišu konture. Mesta me održavaju u životu i nadahnjuju. Potrebna su mi da bih zamislio ljude. Ja sam pisac koji kreće od mesta, a potom ljudi počinju da ih naseljavaju u mojoj mašti. Mesta transformišu ljude, tako je u mojoj literaturi.
Pisanje je kao bolest, ali veoma plodna, veličanstvena bolest, najlepša bolest na svetu
Ovaj susret s mestima vas navodi na introspekciju?
Na ritam, na epski ritam, kao neko ko voli pripovedanje. Pripovedanje je univerzalnije od romana. Roman je vezan za istoriju, za 19. vek. Ne volim reč roman, moj ideal romana je Servantesov „Don Kihot”, srednjovekovni romani poput Parsifala, francuske epopeje iz 12. i 13. veka. Kada osetim ritam nekog mesta to mi daje ritam pripovedanja, a ne nešto realistično. Za mene postoji razlika između realističnog i realnog. Realno je objava, gotovo religiozna, realizam je metoda. Ja nemam metodu. Protiv sam toga da možemo da naučimo da pišemo. Škola pisanja je za mene ludost, to je kraj pisanja.
Živeli ste u Austriji, gde ste rođeni, u SAD, Japanu, pre nego što ste se pre tridesetak godina nastanili u predgrađu Pariza. Da li vam izbor da živite van grada, omogućava više slobode?
Imam utisak da su periferije plodnije od centra. Ne mogu da zamislim da pišem o nečemu što se odvija u velikom gradu. Možda u Beogradu, ali ne u Njujorku, San Francisku. Ne sviđaju mi se filmovi koji su snimljeni u Parizu. Neka mesta ne podstiču maštu.
Napisali ste da veliki gradovi nemaju više ni trbuh ni krilo.
Da, ali čak i periferija iscrpljuje. Ali kao što je rekao francuski pisac Žorž Perek – sve je milost, sve nam je dato.
Vaše delo ovde nije mnogo poznato.
U pravu ste, u bivšoj Jugoslaviji, u Srbiji nisam mnogo prevođen, ne znaju šta sam zapravo radio u životu, pa se pitam zašto su ovde tako ljubazni prema meni. Svuda me pozivaju, pružaju ruku, ali gotovo nigde nisam naišao na osobu koja je čitala ono što sam napisao, a to je najvažnije. Ovde me ne poznaju, gotovo ništa od mojih pozorišnih komada nije izvođeno u Beogradu. Zbog toga sam malo revoltiran.
Kada ste se probili sredinom šezdesetih zahvaljujući pozorišnim predstavama, rušili ste kodove. To je epoha u kojoj su umetnici želeli da promene svet…
Ja nisam želeo da promenim svet, želeo sam da promenim sebe. Želeo sam da zadržim sebe menjajući se. Ali uvek sam želeo da se dam drugima. Inače nema svrhe pisati.
Bežali ste od dogmi, od institucionalnog okruženja…
Suviše sam glup za dogme. Ne volim inteligenciju koja se tako predstavlja. Mrzim to. Svi su inteligentni sem onih koji se tako predstavljaju. Idioti su mnogo inteligentniji od onih koji to pretenduju.
To vas približava literaturi Dostojevskog, Tolstoja…
Ruski 19. vek u epskoj naraciji je bio najznačajniji vek u književnosti. Vezan sam za Tolstoja, za njegov odnos prema prirodi, prema deci…
U knjizi „Juče, na putu” napisali ste: „Nikada ne bih poželeo da pripadam oholom društvu znalaca, a uvek detinjastom društvu onih koji slute”.
Danas postoji neka vrsta religije znalaca, ali uvek dođu kasno. Uzimaju reč kada je već došlo do katastrofe.
U pisanju polazite od duha malih stvari, od efemernog.
Nema malih stvari. Hitler, Staljin, to su za mene male stvari. S Hitlerom ne možete da dosegnete epsko. Mala cipela izgubljena u pesku u očima deteta poprima mnogo veće epske razmere.
Krećete se u različitim žanrovima, ali je intimni dnevnik forma kojoj se često vraćate.
Da, ali ono što mi najviše odgovara je epopeja u tradiciji Homera. To je moja glavna reka. To me iscrpljuje, sisa mi krv, zato sam zadovoljan kada pređem na dijalog i situacije u dramskom tekstu ili scenariju. Ali suština je epsko i da, intimni dnevnik, koji je za mene jednako važan. Ovde je prevedena Moravska noć, Juče na putu… Nije lako naći dobrog prevodioca kao što je bio Zlatko Krasni, veliki prijatelj, pesnik i prevodilac.
Da li ovaj epski pristup znači da iza vašeg dela stoji osmišljena struktura?
Mislim da ona postoji, ali nije osmišljena. Na novinarima, na znalcima je da uoče postoji li ta struktura. Zato sam za to da se književnost studira na fakultetu, kako bi se napravila razlika između dobre i loše književnosti, između onoga što je smelo u formi, u načinu pisanja, ili što se postiže kroz korišćenje već postojećih formi.
Pisanje dramskog teksta, scenarija za film je poput predaha?
Vremenom je postalo istovetno. Pristup je drugačiji, manje mi isisava krv. Mogu da se igram. Kada pišem za pozorište mogu da budem veći idiot nego što jesam.
Ima više slobode u pozorišnom tekstu?
Da, mogu da se igram sa sobom jer je moja priroda pomalo šizoidna, mogu da se sukobim sa sobom na zamišljenom sudu. Danas gotovo da nema dramaturga koji pišu za pozorište. Pozorišni reditelji adaptiraju romane, što je glupo. Kažu: „Sve ide”. Zbog toga više ništa ne ide, nalazimo se u velikoj krizi.
Vaši komadi se često izvode u Evropi…
Ne često, u zadovoljavajućoj meri, ne žalim se. Garažista u priči američkog pisca Vilijama Sarojana kaže: „Ja sam svetski poznat kod svoje žene”. To nije moj slučaj, moja žena me manje poznaje od velikog broja čitalaca (smeje se). Mnoge sam spasao svojom literaturom, iako mi to nije bila namera. Nekad smo spaseni od ljudi koji ne žele da vas spasu.
Poetski i melanholični film Vima Vendersa „Nebo nad Berlinom” (1987), u kome ste radili na scenariju, ne prestaje da nadahnjuje. Kako je izgledala ta saradnja?
Nije to bio scenario, bio sam daleko od rada na Vendersovom filmu. U to vreme sam živeo u Salcburgu. Pitao me je da napišem dijaloge, monologe, pesme. Tokom sedamnaest dana sam pisao i slao mu poštom. Venders je onda to upotrebio u filmu, glumci su izgovarali tekstove. Sve je izveo u montaži. Jednom je u Salcburgu režirao predstavu po mom tekstu „Kroz sela” ali nikada zapravo nismo radili zajedno.
Da li vas veliki potresi u svetu kojih smo svedoci, poput atentata, velikih migracija, interesuju kao pisca?
Da, sigurno, atentati u Parizu, hiljade migranata koji se dave u Mediteranu. To je nepodnošljivo. Ali šta raditi? Za mene to nije tema, ali mi daje neku novu melodiju, ritam.
Gde je danas mesto pisca?
Na tronu. U vreme Viktora Igoa, u vreme Tolstoja i Getea bili smo kraljevi. Sada smo kraljevi u egzilu. Treba tražiti pisce, još uvek dišu. Ne znamo da li će literatura trajati, ali ne treba se žaliti, treba nastaviti. Previše je pesimizma, što je pozicija jednako glupa kao i optimizam. Treba raditi ne obazirući se na to. Uostalom, kada smo unutra, u tom traganju, više se ne pitamo. Pisanje i čitanje je kao bolest, ali veoma plodna, veličanstvena bolest, najlepša bolest na svetu.
Da li vas je u životu vodila želja da se nađete među velikima…
Da, naravno. Ne mislim da sam veliki, ali o tome sanjam već sedamdeset godina.
Komentari16
PRIKAŽI JOŠ
Peter Handke is one of the most important contemporary writers in the German language. His work, however, in our little known or is left in the shadow of outer-literary reading. From his rich prose, drama and essayistic oeuvre has been translated only a small part - novel "Don Juan", drama "Earth Blues", the selected songs' inner world of the external world of the inner world "," Yesterday, on the way "," Moravian Night "...
Therefore, this time we talk about literature, on the sidelines of writers "Counterpoint". Handke holding a small notebook in which records the thoughts long walks where is inspiration.
- Life writer is not lonely, it's a cliché. The writer is related to the whole world while writing. He was then in the best society, in the imagination of some people actually become what they are - says writer whose inner quest sets the pace of the outside world.
Again you are in Belgrade. Is it from your last visit to the city something gained or perhaps lost something?
This is a real city, a life that is taking place here we can not live in Paris. Belgrade is wonderfully uneven. I've been here a dozen times and just starting to discover it, I begin to feel its geography, topography, geology. Here we can wander and not to lose. I dropped down to Dorćol Danube. In the middle of the morning to hear techno music, I saw people who play in the empty space. I do not know if it's nice, but it is special.
Participate in a meeting of writers ...
This is the way. I had no great desire to discuss, but I listened with interest other writers, Russians Prilepin, Chinese Ju Huu and your writer Milovan Danojlic. Previous although not lead to anything, we will not change the world, but why not.
Great you are a traveler, you wrote that the healthiest appetite for those places. The feeling that you are present in the world throughout the whole of your work. What you are connected to some of the city?
Many cities in the world are on track to disappear. Everything is so equated to delete contours. Cities keep me in life and inspire. It takes me I imagined people. I'm a writer who moves from the city, then people begin to inhabit them in my imagination. Cities transform people, so in my literature.
Writing is like a disease, but very fertile, majestic disease, thank disease in the world
This encounter with the places you said to introspection?
At the rhythm, to epic rhythm, as someone who loves storytelling. Storytelling is more universal than the novel. Roman is related to the history, of the 19th century. I do not like the word novel, my ideal novel is Cervantes' "Don Quixote", the medieval novels such as Parsifal, the French epic of 12th and 13th century. When you feel the rhythm of a place that gives me the rhythm of narration rather than something realistic. For me there is a difference between realistic and real. Realistically, the publication, almost religious, the realism of the method. I have no method. I am against the fact that we can learn to write. School writing for me is madness, this is the place of writing.
You lived in Austria, where you were born, in the United States, Japan, before you were thirty years ago settled in the suburbs of Paris. Are you the choice to live outside the city, allows more freedom?
I have the impression that the periphery of the city more fruitful. I can not imagine that I am writing about something that takes place in a big city. Maybe in Belgrade, but not in New York, San Francisco. I do not like movies that are filmed in Paris. Some sites do not encourage imagination.
You wrote that big cities have more not stomach either wing.
Yes, but even the periphery exhausted. But as said the French writer Georges Perec - all the grace, all is given to us.
Your work here is not much known.
You are right, in the former Yugoslavia, in Serbia have not translated a lot, do not know what I actually worked in my life, so I wonder why they are here so kind to me. Everywhere inviting me, extending their hands, but almost nowhere I have not found the person who was reading what I wrote, and this is most important. Here I do not know, almost none of my plays is not performed in Belgrade. That's why I'm a little resentful.
When you get through the middle of the sixties thanks to theater performances, the Russians are codes. This is the epoch in which the artist wanted to change the world ...
I did not want to change the world, I wanted to change myself. I wanted to keep myself changing it. But I always wanted to give others. Otherwise there's no point writing.
You fled from the dogma of the institutional environment ...
I'm too stupid to dogma. I do not like the intelligence that so represents. I hate that. All are intelligent than those who present themselves as such. Idiots are much more intelligent than those who do aspire.
To get you closer to the literature of Dostoevsky, Tolstoy ...
Russian 19th century in the epic narrative was the most important century in literature. I'm bound for Tolstoy, for his attitude towards nature, towards children ...
In the book "Yesterday, on the way" you wrote: "I would never have wanted to belong haughty society experts, but always childish society of those who suspect".
Today there is a kind of religion experts, but always come late. Taking the word when it is already a catastrophe.
In writing a departure from the spirit of small things, of the ephemeral.
There are no small things
Peter Handke is one of the most important contemporary writers in the German language. His work, however, in our little known or is left in the shadow of outer-literary reading. From his rich prose, drama and essayistic oeuvre has been translated only a small part - novel "Don Juan", drama "Earth Blues", the selected songs' inner world of the external world of the inner world "," Yesterday, on the way "," Moravian Night "...
Therefore, this time we talk about literature, on the sidelines of writers "Counterpoint". Handke holding a small notebook in which records the thoughts long walks where is inspiration.
- Life writer is not lonely, it's a cliché. The writer is related to the whole world while writing. He was then in the best society, in the imagination of some people actually become what they are - says writer whose inner quest sets the pace of the outside world.
Again you are in Belgrade. Is it from your last visit to the city something gained or perhaps lost something?
This is a real city, a life that is taking place here we can not live in Paris. Belgrade is wonderfully uneven. I've been here a dozen times and just starting to discover it, I begin to feel its geography, topography, geology. Here we can wander and not to lose. I dropped down to Dorćol Danube. In the middle of the morning to hear techno music, I saw people who play in the empty space. I do not know if it's nice, but it is special.
Participate in a meeting of writers ...
This is the way. I had no great desire to discuss, but I listened with interest other writers, Russians Prilepin, Chinese Ju Huu and your writer Milovan Danojlic. Previous although not lead to anything, we will not change the world, but why not.
Great you are a traveler, you wrote that the healthiest appetite for those places. The feeling that you are present in the world throughout the whole of your work. What you are connected to some of the city?
Many cities in the world are on track to disappear. Everything is so equated to delete contours. Cities keep me in life and inspire. It takes me I imagined people. I'm a writer who moves from the city, then people begin to inhabit them in my imagination. Cities transform people, so in my literature.
Writing is like a disease, but very fertile, majestic disease, thank disease in the world
This encounter with the places you said to introspection?
At the rhythm, to epic rhythm, as someone who loves storytelling. Storytelling is more universal than the novel. Roman is related to the history, of the 19th century. I do not like the word novel, my ideal novel is Cervantes' "Don Quixote", the medieval novels such as Parsifal, the French epic of 12th and 13th century. When you feel the rhythm of a place that gives me the rhythm of narration rather than something realistic. For me there is a difference between realistic and real. Realistically, the publication, almost religious, the realism of the method. I have no method. I am against the fact that we can learn to write. School writing for me is madness, this is the place of writing.
You lived in Austria, where you were born, in the United States, Japan, before you were thirty years ago settled in the suburbs of Paris. Are you the choice to live outside the city, allows more freedom?
I have the impression that the periphery of the city more fruitful. I can not imagine that I am writing about something that takes place in a big city. Maybe in Belgrade, but not in New York, San Francisco. I do not like movies that are filmed in Paris. Some sites do not encourage imagination.
You wrote that big cities have more not stomach either wing.
Yes, but even the periphery exhausted. But as said the French writer Georges Perec - all the grace, all is given to us.
Your work here is not much known.
You are right, in the former Yugoslavia, in Serbia have not translated a lot, do not know what I actually worked in my life, so I wonder why they are here so kind to me. Everywhere inviting me, extending their hands, but almost nowhere I have not found the person who was reading what I wrote, and this is most important. Here I do not know, almost none of my plays is not performed in Belgrade. That's why I'm a little resentful.
When you get through the middle of the sixties thanks to theater performances, the Russians are codes. This is the epoch in which the artist wanted to change the world ...
I did not want to change the world, I wanted to change myself. I wanted to keep myself changing it. But I always wanted to give others. Otherwise there's no point writing.
You fled from the dogma of the institutional environment ...
I'm too stupid to dogma. I do not like the intelligence that so represents. I hate that. All are intelligent than those who present themselves as such. Idiots are much more intelligent than those who do aspire.
To get you closer to the literature of Dostoevsky, Tolstoy ...
Russian 19th century in the epic narrative was the most important century in literature. I'm bound for Tolstoy, for his attitude towards nature, towards children ...
In the book "Yesterday, on the way" you wrote: "I would never have wanted to belong haughty society experts, but always childish society of those who suspect".
Today there is a kind of religion experts, but always come late. Taking the word when it is already a catastrophe.
In writing a departure from the spirit of small things, of the ephemeral.
There are no small things
